Q: Okay. And what triggered your recollection of it?
A: That the population served are kids or juveniles -- well, not juveniles, but people that come from CCDCFS, Children and Family Services, that are abused, neglected, coming from foster home placements, and then they're being mixed with people coming from the Ohio Department of Youth Services, which are basically juvenile prisons. And I looked at that and I said that looks like a bad mix to me.

Q: Do you as the Chief of police for Lakewood like the Youth Re-entry Program?
A: I think the Youth Re-entry Program is a good program. Like I said before, I just think the mix there of people with felonies coming out of junveile prisons and kids that are neglected is just a recipe for trouble. And that's my hang up with the Youth Re-entry Program is the amount of -- really, I think we found that probably most of the crime and the arrests we made were kids that came out of ODYS, the prison. We have a lot of crime there.
Generally, the victims there are kids that come from the neglected and abused homes, not the kids that come out of prison. The kids coming out of prison are the ones committing crimes on the other kids. So as a policeman, that should be our concern, and it is.
Q: And so if they didn't have the kids coming out of the Ohio Department of Youth Services, then you would expect that things would improve?
A: I think so. I think so. I think it would have been better all along if that had not been the mix of people there.
Q: Do you know if they still have ODYS kids?
A: I don't.

Q: Are there particular areas in the City of Lakewood that have higher numbers of African Americans residing in it?
A: Generally, yes.
Q: Where would those areas be generally, in your estimation?
A: Generally, the eastern part of the city, and, I guess -- generally the eastern part of the city. Ward 4 maybe.

Q: And of the wards, where do you have the highest incidents of crime?
A: Generally, Ward 4.


Q: Do you have a perception that there is a higher incident of crime in the African American community than there is in the Caucasian community?
A: No. As relates to Lakewood, no.
Q: Yet Ward 4 has a higher incidence of crime and it has a higher incidence of African Americans, correct?
A: Ward 4 has a higher incidence of crime and it does have a higher ratio, I guess, of African Americans.
Q: Now, you say no as it relates to the City of Lakewood, that you don't believe that there is a higher incidence of crime in the African American community. Do you believe that's generally true outside the City of Lakewood?
A: No. I was just qualifying. I'm talking about Lakewood itself.

Q: Is Hidden Village in an area that has traditionally been a high crime area?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it in Ward 4?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know what reporting district it's in?
A: 7.
Q: Is 7 a high crime area historically?
A: It comes and goes, like a lot of things in the city. The crime problem moves around from place to place at times. So I wouldn't say it's always been the high crime area.
Q: When you say it moves around from place to place, how? What contributes to the crime moving around from area to area?
A: The environment, the location, whatever is attractive to the criminals, whoever is living there at the time, whoever is visiting there at the time. It just depends, you know. It depends.
Q: Okay. Was it a high crime area before the Youth Re-entry Program moved into Hidden Village?
A: It wasn't as high a crime area, but it was a high crime area.

Q: Incidentally, I've seen arrest statistics and things going into 2008. Presently, do you still consider the Hidden Village Youth Re-entry Program to be a contributor to a high crime rate in that area?
A: Yes.

Q: And do you still have a lot of arrests of Hidden Village youth?
A: Yes.
Q: Has that been unabated since 2008?
A: It's gotten worse.
Q: When did it get worse?
A: Well, it's been rising ever since, you know, 2006.

A: The arrests of Youth Re-entry participants has risen obviously since the program started. But each year we've had more arrests.
Q: When I asked you what was rising, you indicated that it was the arrests of YRP you've had. What is your understanding as to the level of convictions following those arrests?
A: Pretty good.
Q: Meaning that you would also expect to find that the level of convictions of Youth Re-entry Program
A: Well, it goes with it. I think most -- with obviously a small exception, all of the participants in that program have been arrested and convicted of the crimes that resulted from the arrests, yes.

Q: And this is regarding attempting to schedule a meeting with Mary Louise Madigan?
A: Yes.
Q: Yet you did not participate in any meeting?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I believe at that time I sent Lieutenant Ciresi to that meeting.
Q: And why would you have sent Lieutenant Ciresi instead of attending yourself?
A: That's what chiefs do.
Q: They delegate?
A: They delegate, have other people do the work.

Q: At the end of that letter he asks them to voluntarily leave the City of Lakewood. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it your understanding from that point forward that the policy of the Administration with respect to the Youth Re-entry Program was that they needed to leave the City of Lakewood?
A: No.
Q: When did that change, then, if the mayor was asking them in February of 2007 to voluntarily leave? When did it change?
A: I didn't consider this to be the policy of the city.
Q: Why? It was a letter from the Mayor.
A: I thought it was ridiculous.
Q: You thought the letter was ridiculous?
A: It was unenforceable.
Q: Why was it unenforceable?
A: There is no meat behind it. He can't make them leave the city.
Q: Did you tell anybody that you thought the letter was ridiculous?
A: No. I don't think it was my place to.

A: The first time we saw it was in the meeting, so I didn't have a chance to drill down their numbers or anything else. But I think the bold face on the bottom was really a mischaracterization --
Q: Why?
A: -- a misrepresentation. Because it wasn't true.
Q: That there were zero youths in the program charged with or convicted of a crime?
A: Yes.
Q: So you had that information that you could have provided to them after this meeting, right?
A: We could have.
Q: Did you?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Why not?
A: It ended up being kind of -- we were at odds at the end of that meeting, and it seemed to me that they really were not interested in the information.

Q: Okay. Are the Lakewood Club Apartments apartments that have had a lot of criminal activity?
A: Yes.
Q: More than Hidden Village or less?
A: More.
Q: Is it now less?
A: Yes.
Q: Why is it less?
A: They've taken steps to control their tenants better, to make improvements in the security of the property. They've worked hard with the Lakewood Police Department and some initiatives to do that. And as a result, crime has been reduced at that property.
Q: But you don't have anything that the Hidden Village property owners have tried to cooperate with the police to reduce crime in the area?
A: No.
Q: Why do you say that?
A: Probably based on their letters.
Q: Just their letters indicating that they think the city is incriminating against them?
A: No. The letter is saying stay off our property unless you have a search warrant.

Q: Do you know how it is that their property ended up being inspected six days after that meeting with the Mayor?
A: Not really.
Q: Do you know whether it was planned prior to meeting with the Mayor?
A: I don't.
Q: Do you know what prompted the inspection?
A: I don't.

Q: As we sit here today, do you know why there was a joint inspection of Hidden Village?
A: I don't know exactly what the reason was to go at the same -- no.

Q: Did you ever read the article in Scene Magazine about Hidden Village?
A: Yes.
Q: Exhibit 99 (handing). It's a two-page article. I know it's small print. Do you mind reading it and letting me know that if there is anything in there that you think is factually incorrect, at least within your knowledge.
Q: I wanted to say that as you come across things that you don't believe are accurate, just go ahead and chime in, if you want.
A: Okay. Well, they say, "Case managers are on hand 24/7 to make sure they don't go astray." I would suggest that certainly some of them do go astray. I know they are there 24/7, but certainly some of the kids or some of the participants have not done what they were supposed to have and have gone astray. And I'm not sure it's factually correct that Lakewood is struggling to cope. I don't think it's factually correct. I mean, it seems to be an opinion that "Lakewood is struggling to cope with the tide of Cleveland refugees streaming over its borders. It's desperate to avoid the fate of places like Warrensville Heights or Maple Heights."
Q: You don't agree that Lakewood is trying to avoid the fate of places like Warrensville Heights or Maple Heights?
A: Well, it says, "It's desperate to avoid the fate of places like." That's a little condescending to Maple Heights and Warrensville Heights that they're bad places. This is small writing.
Q: It is. I'm sorry.
A: "Haven to an unusually high number of pedofiles."
Q: What is?
A: They claim Lakewood is. We do have sexual offenders, but very few are pedofiles. To put in "City officials saw it, the last thing they needed was a few more troubled teens," that's not a fact. That's an opinion, again, in the article. Of course, remember now you're asking me what's factually correct in a newspaper article.
A: Of course, "The more blacks that move in, the worse the neighborhood becomes" isn't a fact. Well, that "evidence of real criminal activity caused by the program is scant" -- I think we're here on July 18th, 2007?
Q: Right.
A: It just mentioned the shoplifting incident and then it minimized kids accused of trying to rob a Walgreen's employee at knifepoint. He stabbed -- it was a shopper, and she got stabbed in the stomach. And so they're making a reference "For an apartment complex full of 28 troubled teens, that's not a bad batting average." It's only two incidents that they're recounting there. I don't know about the 160 times in the last nine months. I don't know whether that's accurate or not.
Q: Let me know when you're done with the article.
A: Obviously the last line, "I like Lakewood even though they don't like us," it's not a fact.
Q: That Lakewood doesn't like them? Do you think Lakewood does like the Youth Re-entry Program?
A: I can't speak for Lakewood.

A: It was different with Mayor George. Mayor Fitzgerald and I have a lot of face-to-face time and discussions about whatever is going on with the department or the city. So we don't really do a lot of email back and forth. He's never been a big email kind of guy and he's usually acccesible to me here.
Tom George, you might get him, you might not. So that's why email was the best way to discuss things with him. And obviously, Mayor Fitzgerald is much more involved with the police department than Mayor George was.
Q: Why is that obvious?
A: If you pay attention to Lakewood, we have public safety initiative in the city. Mayor Fitzgerald, his initiative for election about increasing the police officers in the city and some of the special programs we have now came out of that initiative. So he's much more involved.
Q: If you didn't have email communications, tell me what you recall about your verbal conversations with him regarding Hidden Village.
A: Mayor Fitzgerald?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, mostly, I would keep him informed of arrests just like I did with Mayor George. But it was mostly through a verbal meeting and not an email or a written document or anything like that. Mostly sitting down, saying what's been going on kind of sessions.
Q: Okay. Once he became mayor is when the Justice Department came in. And so at that point the law was handling everything with a response to documents and collecting documents and things like that. So he was involved -- his instructions were that the law.

Q: Separate and apart from the lawsuit, I'm assuming there's been some discussions as a city on what to do with Hidden Village?
A: Yes. But his position with me was that he had a good working relationship with the people from Youth Re-entry and I don't know who they are to this day. But he knew some of the people running the program or maybe with Lutheran Metro Ministries, and he felt that he had already had a good relationship with them and he felt that he could work with them to see if they couldn't improve the situation there.
Q: Have you explained to them that you don't think the situation has improved?
A: We haven't talked much about it lately.
Q: When was the last time you think you talked to him about it?
A: I don't know if we even talked this year about it. I don't recall telling him much of anything about it, unless we had an arrest that I would have told him about. But mostly it's just been keeping him informed of the arrests going on.
Q: Okay.