Q: Was it your understanding of the zoning laws in effect for Hidden Village at that time that no use of that property was permitted where staff was required?
A: My viewpoint of looking at it was that the Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry was taking over a building and running it as a program. One of the rooms was an office. Another one was a conference room. The building was not being run in the residential manner dictated by the zoning code.

Q: What did Mr. Favre tell you about the nature of this program prior to February 14, 2006?
A: Exact conversations I don't remember. It was that they were some juvenile offenders trying to be rehabilitated, that there were a lot of blacks in the program. Other than -- I don't remember other than that.
Q: Okay. So he expressed two concerns to you generally speaking. One concern was that there were people with criminal backgrounds or criminal records?
A: Yes.
Q: And the other one was there were a large number of blacks?
A: No.
Q: He did not say "a large number of blacks"?
A: He said, "There are some blacks in the program" and he said that without any emotion either about it.
Q: Do you think that had any relevancy to the zoning issue?
A: I think it was just general conversation.

Q: Tell me what conversations you had with Ed Favre about the planning commission issuing their decision.
A: He disagreed with them. He asked me why. I believe that's the way I remember it. He asked me why and I said, "I have no idea why they turned it down." To this day, I have no idea why they turned -- why they changed my interpretation or saw that it wasn't correct.
Q: Was he upset that they had gone in a different direction and sustained the appeal?
A: I don't know if "upset" would be the word. Mystified, confused as to why, yeah.

Q: Now, are you currently under any medication that affects your memory?
A: No.
Q: Has anything happened that would affect your memory?
A: No.
Q: But nevertheless, as we sit here today, you have no recollection of any meeting only three months before your retirement with Mayor George to address the issue of Hidden Village?
A: No. When I left the building department, I left the city. I left it all.

Scott Gilman, Fire Marshall.

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Q: But, I mean, specifically, there was some reason that this joint department group went over to Hidden Village. Did you have an understanding as to what it was?
A: My understanding was that we weren't sure of the use. I was not sure of the use of the building.

Q: So had the building department determined the use of these buildings?
A: The building department has still not determined the use.

A: There had been a complaint about residents being locked into the buildings prior to the inspection.
Q: Residents being locked into the building?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Who made that complaint?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is that complaint documented somewhere?
A: I don't know.

Q: You don't have any knowledge as to why the police were necessary at Hidden Village?
A: No.

A: My conversation was an attempt to try and define the use of the building, whether it was residential or had changed to institutional --
Q: Okay.
A: -- so I could properly apply the fire code to the building.
Q: And what did he tell you?
A: I still do not have a definitive answer to where I can feel I can know which safety code, which fire code, which level of safety to apply to that building.

Q: Did he tell you he thought it was an institutional or residential use?
A: Institutional.
Q: And did you take that to the building department?
A: I did.
Q: And what happened?
A: There's been no resolution as to the use group of the building.
Q: And if you know, how did [the state fire marshal] determine it was an institutional use? What was the basis?
A: The services being provided.

Q: And how did it come to your attention that they were considering moving?
A: Came to my attention in two ways: Mary Louise Madigan, Councilperson, she and I had a conversation in passing after a City Council meeting in early 2006, and Mary Hall, who is Assistant Director of the Division of Youth, also informed me because of her conversation with Mark Brauer.

Q: Going into this meeting, did you know that there was going to be an objection to the Youth Re-Entry Program's presence in the City of Lakewood?
A: No.

Q: Did you think that it was a program that the City of Lakewood would embrace when you made that introduction?
A: I didn't have any opinion one way or the other.

Q: Who told you that the Division of Youth would not be able to work with the Youth Re-Entry Program until outstanding issues with the City were resolved?
A: I believe I was directed by my boss.
Q: Which would be Mayor George?
A: Correct.

Q: May I have that [exhibit] back? Did he tell you why the Division of Youth would not be able to work with the Youth Re-entry Program until those issues were resolved?
A: I only understood that it was a conflict because they were -- there was a conflict because of the violation of the zoning code.

Q: Did you understand that even after that Planning Commission decision that the administration of the City of Lakewood did not want Youth Re-Entry Program here in the City?
A: No. I understand there were concerns.
Q: Tell me what you understood those concerns to be.
A: Involvement in criminal activity or police activity.

Q: Were you surprised that that was the position of the Mayor?
A: Let me consider this. The term surprised is --can you clarify surprised?
Q: Yeah. Did you --
A: Did I anticipate that?
Q: Were you surprised? And surprised using the regular definition of surprised, i.e., you didn't expect that the Mayor would send a letter to the Youth Re-Entry Program asking them to leave the City.
A: I did not expect that a letter would be issued.
Q: Was that the first you heard that the Mayor actually wanted them out of the City of Lakewood?
A: That letter, I did not expect to see that letter.

Q: Do you have any explanation why Sergeant Favre would have been so hostile towards your involvement at that time?
A: No. No, unless -- human services and police, social services and police services sometimes are diametrically opposed.

Q: And tell me what your thoughts were when you received this email from Mayor George [expressing surprise that she was at meeting with Madigan and LMM].
A: I didn't see a problem with my attending the meeting because I had been asked by a councilperson, and needed clarification if there was a problem with me being involved in this in the future.

Q: Do you know why you wouldn't have met with the Mayor after he told you you definitely need to meet regarding this issue?
A: No. It was clear at the time that I was not to be involved with any discussion with Lutheran Metropolitan Ministry.